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 Post subject: Re: two kinds of representation
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:23 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 6
Yes, thank you very much!


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 Post subject: Re: two kinds of representation
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:15 pm
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elzazi wrote:
I also do not understand the difference btw. the underlying and surface representation (but in general).
Take it this way: the underlying representation is in your mind, the surface representation is what comes out of your mouth. What comes out of your mouth is an utterance like [azé hogy mektuggyam enni]. This is more or less a surface representation, we have empirical evidence for it, we hear it. Underlyingly it would be something like /azért hogy megtudjam enni/, there is no empirical evidence for this form, we can't peek into our heads to check if it is so, this is just our conjecturing. We derive the form [mek] from an underlying /meg/ because in other cases the same morpheme comes out as [meg] (for example, in megenni; we say that [mek] and [meg] are allomorphs of the morpheme /meg/). We derive [tuggyam] from /tudjam/ because the first bit comes out as [tud] in e.g. [tudom] and the last bit as [jam] in [hívjam]. The issue then is how far we go back with this derivation, this is the problem of abstractness. We may want to say that /jam/ is the same morpheme that sometimes is /jem/ (e.g., in [kennyem] from /kenjem/), so we may want to derive both /jam/ and /jem/ from some even more abstract underlying form, like //j-low vowel-m//, where the front or back nature of the low vowel is derived by some rule. Clearer?

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 Post subject: Re: two kinds of representation
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:43 pm 
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I also do not understand the difference btw. the underlying and surface representation (but in general). Could you explain it? Thank you very much in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: two kinds of representation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:08 pm 
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We were wondering whether a word like car is stored in our mind as /kɑː/ or as /kɑːr/. One of these two would be its underlying representation, but since we cannot look into the speaker's head, we do not know which. The surface representation we do know: it is /kɑː/ before a consonant or finally, and /kɑːr/ before a vowel. Now the task is to argue that the two attested surface forms are both best derivable from either the r-final or the r-less underlying form, since it would be weird to assume that there are two forms stored in our mind, when their surface representation follows fully automatically.

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 Post subject: two kinds of representation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:53 pm
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I do not understand the difference between the underlying and the surface representation. (R - rules) Could you explain it, please?
Thanks for your help in advance.


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