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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:49 pm 
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david.soproni wrote:
There is a good reason for departments (including TOLC 1 and 2 at CETT) not offering a second date for language competence exams. This reason has to do with an important difference between the nature of what is tested (language versus content-based subjects such as linguistics or literature, for example). Revising the latter subjects for two weeks after a failed exam might do wonders, but it is not possible to claim that if a student was duly failed on a language competence test (inference: student does not have the desired level of language ability) this student would somehow, in a matter of, say, two weeks attain the required level by the retake of the exam. It is the fact that language competence manifests itself through skills that lies at the heart of this difference.


Our problem with a single exam date was not that there is no retake. You can offer 2 dates and specify that the second one is not a retake. I find your arguments on the financial-organizational difficulties of a second date quite convincing though.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:27 am 
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Dear list contributors,

I would like to voice my opinion concerning the number of exam takes on this list as coordinator since 1998 of the two similar exams at CETT.

There is a good reason for departments (including TOLC 1 and 2 at CETT) not offering a second date for language competence exams. This reason has to do with an important difference between the nature of what is tested (language versus content-based subjects such as linguistics or literature, for example). Revising the latter subjects for two weeks after a failed exam might do wonders, but it is not possible to claim that if a student was duly failed on a language competence test (inference: student does not have the desired level of language ability) this student would somehow, in a matter of, say, two weeks attain the required level by the retake of the exam. It is the fact that language competence manifests itself through skills that lies at the heart of this difference.

I should also add that with the present state of the budget (what a euphemism) there are no resources to do the work necessary to make sure the second (or third) take of the exam is thoroughly equivalent to the first, let alone to the same exam in the previous term(s). It is a misconception to imagine, as one of the postings says, that teachers may have to invigilate a little more and prepare another exam sheet. To set equivalent exams (to previous terms) takes a lot of preparation during term time and about two or three weeks behind-the-scenes work after the test has been administered. After marking has been done, it takes this time for some colleagues to process the responses, grades etc. in a way that in the end the exam really comes out as equivalent to previous takes. Of course, all this can be watered down, crappy exams can be produced, but what would happen to the quality of the decisions that are made about students’ exam performances? What confidence can be placed in results obtained on badly and hastily prepared tests?

CETT in the past opted for a quality approach that entails more work for fewer testing occasions. Indeed, what is the point of doing testing poorly? If this is the case, there is no point in giving the test at all. Just to check out administrative responsibility?

Personally, I would not wish to continue as coordinator, if I am prevented from being able to do the work properly (simply because of overload) and if I cannot take professional responsibility for a pass result that it is indeed a pass and a fail that it is indeed a fail. How would anyone in this position be able to communicate to students that they should place confidence in the test results?

Dávid Gergely


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:21 pm 
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The issue shall be discussed at the institute council next Tuesday.


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 Post subject: collecting signatures?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:45 pm 
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In any case it is good to know halmtomi and gregorik may sign their name to the request R Gabor and I may set up :lol:
I have not yet received mail back from Ms. Piniel on what might be done in my case.
To gregorik: the reason I am returning on December 30 is exactly so that I would have time for taking my examinations all through January... Who knew they would hold the 299 on the first (?) day of the exam period?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:03 pm 
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R_Gabor wrote:
The teachers would have to devise two seperate exam sheets, that's true, but would that really make that much of a difference?
Exactly. That's going to be the crux of the issue, but I don't want to speak in the name of those concerned.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:58 pm 
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I don't get it. This wouldn't change neither the number of students taking the exam nor the number of rooms that have to be supervised nor the number of exams that have to be corrected.
The teachers would have to devise two seperate exam sheets, that's true, but would that really make that much of a difference?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:50 pm 
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Because even if you're right, I doubt DEAL will be able to give two sessions for these exams.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:47 pm 
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Why?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:32 pm 
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The situation is pretty similar to that of those doctors who -- the Constitutional Jury ruled -- have the right to a whole lot of money for working overtime. They have the right, but their hospitals will just be unable to pay them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:35 am 
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Just to put all this into a bit of context: last year I spent a semester at a Dutch university, and there, there was only a single exam date for each course. So there is really nothing outrageous in having just one exam date for 299, it's actually quite nice that we are offered 2+1 dates in most cases.

Nevertheless, once the rules are laid down you have to play by them, and I totally agree with R_gabor that ETVSZ 53$ and that ANN TEL bit say nothing about the number of exam dates to be offered by departments (they say a lot about the number of exams to be taken by each individual, but these two need not be equal), so they do not overwrite ETVSZ $50.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying for 2 299 exam dates
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:26 am 
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sara wrote:
Agreed. Shall we try to make them have two dates? I would be happy to give it a go.


We'll do our best :)

I checked the link, it worked for me, maybe the server was down at the time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:32 pm 
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"Since I will be abroad until December 30"

the usual cold but understandable reply the Departments give one in the event of such a problem is that you should choose which is the more important: a foreign trip or a timely university degree. I'm not sure you can do anything to change this (some of us tried).


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 Post subject: dead link
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:52 pm 
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R_Gabor wrote:
If you and Ms. Piniel fail to find a solution to the problem, please contact the student representatives.


The link you sent (http://angolszhek.fw.hu/) turns up as a completely white page, save the advertising on top.


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 Post subject: Trying for 2 299 exam dates
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:49 pm 
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R_Gabor wrote:
The different regulations don't contradict each other (for once).

§53 and the TEL only say that one student can only take the exam once. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be two dates, out of which students can pick one.

I know that having just one exam date has always been the practice, but besides being illegal it has often caused difficulties to many students, which is why it would be time to resolve the situation.


Agreed. Shall we try to make them have two dates? I would be happy to give it a go.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:59 pm 
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You will have to fight for your interpretation of the regulations in the Institute Council. (Propose this issue for the agenda.)

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