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Should teachers be periodically fired to save money?
Yes, there is no other way. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Yes, but only as a last resort. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Yes, if their work is not satisfactory. 21%  21%  [ 4 ]
Yes, but not in such a manner. 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
No, this is no way to treat teachers who work hard. 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
No, firing teachers cannot help ELTE's financial status. 26%  26%  [ 5 ]
No, everything should be done to save money without firing anyone. 16%  16%  [ 3 ]
No, under no circumstances should such a thing occur again. 21%  21%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 19
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:34 am 
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Norbi wrote:


Wow. One of my Film studies major acquaintances told me that her friend, who is working for Origo, is onto publishing this problem. I guess this is the result. I'm happy it got a highlight, and I hope it will go somewhere from here.

And it even has a link to this topic. Wow, I'm honored. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:14 am 
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Check this out: http://origo.hu/itthon/20050311listat.html

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:23 pm 
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Adam Dobay wrote:
I understand and agree that the staff deserves the altogether 12 percent rise in pay that the trade unions have made obligatory, but as Magyar Balint has said in an interview this morning, a pay rise over inflation by this amount is impossible to be paid for tens of thousands of people, there is simply no money for that.


:shock: Hello, he is our opponent now! I mean, he says what he says because his job is to save as much money as he can (for the gov to spend for other causes). Of course, he blaims univs.

Otherwise I do agree with you. BUT if all triple times hired (ie in three different univs) prof emerituses (or is it emeritee?) would be "fired" (ie. made retired) than there would be less problem, if you see what I mean. I know that PhD courses couldn't do without such big brains but still.

I have to admit that these prof ems are usually not seen in BTK but mainly in ÁJTK (I'm serious, they work full time at three to five dif. places!).

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Last edited by clarika on Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:17 pm 
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clarika wrote:
Please note, that there's a huge problem with financing ELTE. To be very brief, the ministry gives less money to the univ. than what it would minimally need to pay for its bills and salaries therefore it is simply impossible to make through the year without any firings...


I'm sorry to disagree with you Klári, but it is not. In the other thread we have mentioned just half a dozen cases where the university could spare a hell of a lot of money (my favourite is the hundreds of millions spent on international phone bills). People like to blame the ministry, but that is the easy way.
I understand and agree that the staff deserves the altogether 12 percent rise in pay that the trade unions have made obligatory, but as Magyar Balint has said in an interview this morning, a pay rise over inflation by this amount is impossible to be paid for tens of thousands of people, there is simply no money for that. I am not saying that teachers do not deserve this, I am only saying that there is no money for such a rise. And I don't think it's right to demand the money from the ministry, claiming that they have to provide the money, when they simply do not have more money. Sorry, I just don't think it fair.
I'm not saying the ministry is perfect, far be it from me, but bashing it (like many people at the university) without looking into ELTE's own finances is not right.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:15 pm 
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Please note, that there's a huge problem with financing ELTE. To be very brief, the ministry gives less money to the univ. than what it would minimally need to pay for its bills and salaries therefore it is simply impossible to make through the year without any firings...

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http//angolszhek.uw.hu


Last edited by clarika on Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please, we have to do something to save our teachers!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:34 pm 
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halmtomi wrote:
As a matter of fact, civil disobedience by definition is illegal. It is a very peaceful tactic of course, but you can break the law in peaceful ways.


:shock: First , you were right: I used the wrong words. I had a law referrent explain the details to me (and if anyone's interested, I'll forward the enlightening email...), in a word, it's breaking the law while knowing of it, and facing the consequences of your actions -- all peacefully, deliberately and knowingly. Second, my apologies for having mislead you.

Pax et vale,
Saiph

"A smart man can recognize his mistakes, an intelligent one can admit them."


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 Post subject: Re: Please, we have to do something to save our teachers!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:26 pm 
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Saiph wrote:
Who's to stop a professor if s/he decides you're not passing his/her comprehensive exam? ...If s/he wants to, s/he'll be able to find a fault in your knowledge: a good enough excuse for failing you.

I hereby announce in the name of all SEAS staff that the assessment of a student's academic performance has never been (okay, since 1990) and will never be negatively influenced by his/her public activity. Political opinion cannot be taken into account at exams. If you get to know of any such case, do not hesitate to ask for the assistance of the head of SEAS. (Having said that I must also add this is not always easy, cf. the Bacsfi Diana case.)

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 Post subject: Re: Please, we have to do something to save our teachers!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:00 pm 
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Saiph wrote:
I am not going to argue with you on this one. Go ahead, do as you feel right. I can name you (in private email) people who have been told by their teachers PERSONALLY that they should keep out of _any_ and _every_ public movement if they wish to get a diploma here at ELTE. ...But, ofcourse, you may argue, that that wouldn't be legal... Who's to stop a professor if s/he decides you're not passing his/her comprehensive exam? ...If s/he wants to, s/he'll be able to find a fault in your knowledge: a good enough excuse for failing you.


OK, probably I was a bit naive :(



Saiph wrote:
halmtomi wrote:
What you describe looks like a demonstration to me, so you would definitely need the permit for it.


Well, it is not... And like I said before, I do not wish to explain every detail of what I say... please take the time to read into the expressions we use here, etc. A protest/demonstration is something with an outwardly stated aim (& they usually have programs, transparents, posters, loudspeakers... the works... so that people can "voice" their opinion).
"Polgári engedetlenség"... as it is... is something different. Recall the 1960s United States "protests" of the university students... noone said why they were camped out on the university loans.... about 2000 of them...

... But everyone knew.
And saw.
And made an opinion of their stand.
And made their own stand on the issue afterwards.
etc.


Occupying the premises of the university without any kind of permit is illegal. As a matter of fact, civil disobedience by definition is illegal. It is a very peaceful tactic of course, but you can break the law in peaceful ways. Not paying taxes, not sending your children to school, refusing compulsory military service are prominent examples of civil disobedience, and all of them are illegal.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:08 pm 
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Saiph wrote:
I would just like to seize the opportunity to thank Szigetvári Péter for the energy he has laid in the issue & the whole school this term. It more than probably exceeds what he had bargained for, and takes the lightning out of the clear blue sky with amazing patience. I can only admire your work, Sir. Thank you.


I would like to second that. Mr. Szigetvari has worked much in favour of the students, much more than many people who actually get paid for doing such types of work. The enormous work with the SEAS server, the preregistration system, the course catalogue system, the course demand system, administration in general and the extra effort when the ETR chaos arrived. So all that, thumbs up, if ELTE goes bankrupt we'll go buy you an extremely large orange juice or something. </Off-topic>

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:38 pm 
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Out of topic:

I would just like to seize the opportunity to thank Szigetvári Péter for the energy he has laid in the issue & the whole school this term. It more than probably exceeds what he had bargained for, and takes the lightning out of the clear blue sky with amazing patience. I can only admire your work, Sir. Thank you.

One watchful & increasingly greatful "university citizen"


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 Post subject: Re: Please, we have to do something to save our teachers!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:30 pm 
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halmtomi wrote:

True. On the other hand, police and authorities are quite liberal at handing out such permits, so it should not be that difficult to get one. And once you have it, you are perfectly legal.


Yes, they are. Precisely on account of the fact that they are increasingly hard to keep to -- I mean the rules of such protests. I've just spoken to a peer who says that they've just visited BRFK, and asked about the conditions of getting such a permit. The rules are simple... and nearly impossible to meet. For example, for every 10 protester, there needs to be at least 1 organizer... (considering the size of ...only OUR major (szak), ANN, ...that would be, say, 2000 students... thus, 200 organizers) (I know I shouldn't be counting on the complete attendance of all the students at the "angol-amerikanisztika intézet"... but I just wanted to make a point).
Good luck. :(


Saiph wrote:
No one person is going to go and get an authorization from the city (and I recommend you don't: it would make an easy target of you; someone to point at when searching for scapegoats).


halmtomi wrote:
Come on, you really think our university would discriminate against students because they organised a completely legal protest? That would have been possible twenty years ago, but not now.


I am not going to argue with you on this one. Go ahead, do as you feel right. I can name you (in private email) people who have been told by their teachers PERSONALLY that they should keep out of _any_ and _every_ public movement if they wish to get a diploma here at ELTE. ...But, ofcourse, you may argue, that that wouldn't be legal... Who's to stop a professor if s/he decides you're not passing his/her comprehensive exam? ...If s/he wants to, s/he'll be able to find a fault in your knowledge: a good enough excuse for failing you.
But this is merely an example. A crude example. And any teacher at the majors I am in may well protest, saying this may never occur here at our department (school/intézet)... And they are right: I have not know anyone here to do such a thing.
But, we're talking of the whole BTK... and maybe even the TTK too. And, believe me, this DID and still does happen.
I haven't said names, intentionally. If you are interested, contact me via private email. This is no matter of others. I do not wish to raise charges against any teacher. I was merely telling you about the grounds of my fears.

Saiph wrote:
I am not sure about the university's procedures for _misdemeanors_ (szabálysértés). To my knowledge, you may still attend a university/college if you have a misdemeanor on your record, BUT you should ask about those (and if you do, share the information with us here).


halmtomi wrote:
What do you mean by misdemeanours? Organizing and participating in a legal protest is not a misdemeanour.


Precisely what I said: szabálysértés. Please look into a little law, if you're really interested. I do not have the time or strength to elaborate on every strand of information I convey. That is why I am not a student body representative.
I would call...
[Policeman: "So, then, where is your organizer... who are you with?"
XXXXXXX: "Umm... she was here somewhere... I signed up with XY. I must have lost her in this big mob... a tall blond girl?"
Policeman: "I see... You lost her. Oookay, may I have your ID, please? I would like to file a misdemeanor: breaking the rules for protest."]
this a misdemeanor-example...
And you'd be lucky. If the policeman finds that your "losing my supervisor" was intentional... it may even be re-evaluated to more than a misdemeanor (szabálysértés)... and then good-bye-university.

I know I'm being very sharp here (ie, giving the extreme examples), but there _have_ been examples of such origin. This _may_ happen here. I just want everybody to know what NOT to do; what NOT to say... etc. if they should come to such a situation.
Know your rights.
Know what you CAN do.
And know how to do it, so that noone can find a fault in your "defense."
You have to know how easy it would be to find a little glix in our "perfect protest"... nothing is simple. :( And I am most sorry for it - believe me.

halmtomi wrote:
What you describe looks like a demonstration to me, so you would definitely need the permit for it.


Well, it is not... And like I said before, I do not wish to explain every detail of what I say... please take the time to read into the expressions we use here, etc. A protest/demonstration is something with an outwardly stated aim (& they usually have programs, transparents, posters, loudspeakers... the works... so that people can "voice" their opinion).
"Polgári engedetlenség"... as it is... is something different. Recall the 1960s United States "protests" of the university students... noone said why they were camped out on the university loans.... about 2000 of them...

... But everyone knew.
And saw.
And made an opinion of their stand.
And made their own stand on the issue afterwards.
etc.

Once again... THIS WAS NOT A SUGGESTION. I am by no means trying to persuade students of ELTE to perform any of the above. I am in the belief that people reading this forum are all from the university and therefore are grown men and women, in their right minds: capable of distinguishing fact from fiction, and capable of deciding things for their own. This holds true for all I have said and will say, should I fail at noting this in any later post.

Saiph

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 Post subject: Re: Please, we have to do something to save our teachers!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:40 pm 
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Saiph wrote:
Any kind of protest needs a confirmation from Budapest's legal bodies (or at least, depending on the size of the event, the district's authorization, respectively). In the lack of such a clearance, even the police may be called out on the protesters.


True. On the other hand, police and authorities are quite liberal at handing out such permits, so it should not be that difficult to get one. And once you have it, you are perfectly legal.

Saiph wrote:
No one person is going to go and get an authorization from the city (and I recommend you don't: it would make an easy target of you; someone to point at when searching for scapegoats).


Come on, you really think our university would discriminate against students because they organised a completely legal protest? That would have been possible twenty years ago, but not now.

Saiph wrote:
I am not sure about the university's procedures for _misdemeanors_ (szabálysértés). To my knowledge, you may still attend a university/college if you have a misdemeanor on your record, BUT you should ask about those (and if you do, share the information with us here).


What do you mean by misdemeanours? Organizing and participating in a legal protest is not a misdemeanour.

Saiph wrote:
:idea: Civil disorder (polgári engedetlenség), on the other hand... such as sitting down on the stairs of the university and not moving anywhere, not saying anything, for example... cannot (to my knowledge) be held against students by the university/government when considering their legitimacy to attend higher education.


What you describe looks like a demonstration to me, so you would definitely need the permit for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Please, we have to do something to save our teachers!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:58 pm 
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0219 wrote:
Who are they? (I do not have the message you people keep referring to. Thanks.)


...I would just like to take note of the fact that we shouldn't be looking for people behind the posts. It was an _official_ that acted, and we shouldn't be talking about the person behind the post. What matters is what the official _did_. And how we may alter that decision... or how we can contribute to an acceptable solution to BOTH our problems (trust me, no one at ELTE wanted this).

Saiph :(

PS: To answer your question... S/he was probably referring to the immediate official(s) responsible for the sacking of the 9 teachers in the teacher training center (cett). If you want to know names... Well, I myself do not know. From Péter Szigetvári's letter, we gain knowledge of the School (intézet & a tanácsa) finding itself "unfit" for the gruesome task of selecting from amongst themselves the people who were to be "hanged"... but then who _did_ make the selection? ...that remains unsaid - publicly.

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Last edited by Saiph on Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please, we have to do something to save our teachers!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:46 pm 
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Norbi wrote:
Hey YOU! You have just got rid of 9 irreplaceable teachers! :evil: What is next??? :?: :?: :?:


First of all, I would like to call all of your attention to the fact that many of us are really trying to get things going on a student level, and are slowly gaining attention from other spheres. Therefore, I (in the name of all, who take this matter seriously) would like to ask all of you to keep this discussion on a professional level. Let's not start barking at people we do not know, and are not familiar with the situation they made their decisions in, etc. There is no need for that, and it has no use. Let's be constructive, people.
__________

I managed to get hold of our SZHÉK (one of them). He and I had a talk about this issue, and I must say, I was quite embarrassed to bring up the issue at all, as I heard that this morning, a group of freshmen ran down the HÖK office, and threw a fit. Anyway, I did bring it up. The szhék looked at me with tired red eyes (he had been up almost all night searching for answers), but patiently started explaining. I am not going to quote him and write down everything he said. In a very small nutshell, here it is:
- What everyone needs to understand is, that the Dean acted completely legally. I've been told that there has never been such a precedent before in the history of ELTE, but yes, this is/was legal.

What I distilled from all this:
On account of this legality, we need to comprehend that there really isn't much an official body can do (ie, hök). What we the students do under their/our own surveilance & organization is their/our own matter, and still may be effective, but we are going to have to act together, and on our own.

I've been contacted by several of you - and I am thankful for your respect and trust - that there are many groups out there that would appear at protests all we need to do, is say where/when. And I've also been contacted by peers who would take on the hardhips of _organizing_ such an event -- for which I am also greatful as I would never have such a strength.

However, you must all keep in mind, that things are not that simple.
Most peers I have talked to in the recent days suggested protesting -- without even knowing what this may cost them. Please, educate yourselves before you come up with rash suggestions. Look into your rights and - more importantly - your obligations!
Any kind of protest needs a confirmation from Budapest's legal bodies (or at least, depending on the size of the event, the district's authorization, respectively). In the lack of such a clearance, even the police may be called out on the protesters.
I would also like to call to the attention of some of the more... radical people, that one cannot be a university citizen (egyetemi polgár) with a legal record (priusz). Considering the number of the outraged people, and the size of the protest that some of you have signalled, I am sure it would receive unwanted attention from the police, if they/we were to line up (as some have suggested!) on Kossuth tér. Don't be ridiculous.

No one person is going to go and get an authorization from the city (and I recommend you don't: it would make an easy target of you; someone to point at when searching for scapegoats).
I am not sure about the university's procedures for _misdemeanors_ (szabálysértés). To my knowledge, you may still attend a university/college if you have a misdemeanor on your record, BUT you should ask about those (and if you do, share the information with us here).

The following is NOT a suggestion. I am merely letting you know what I was led to believe.
:idea: Civil disorder (polgári engedetlenség), on the other hand... such as sitting down on the stairs of the university and not moving anywhere, not saying anything, for example... cannot (to my knowledge) be held against students by the university/government when considering their legitimacy to attend higher education.

...
Whatever we students do... we must take note that it might draw public attention, and may form the public's opinion of us. THINK before you act. Investigate the consequences of your actions before you choose to do them.

Worried,
Saiph
:?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:23 am 
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For those who did not have the chance to read the letter which incited this topic, here it is:

Dear member of SEAS,

This is to inform staff and students at the School of English and American Studies about the effect of the recent cuts on the staff.

With reference to the obligation of ELTE to pay the legally prescribed 13th month salaries and from 1 January the equally legally prescribed increase upon the salaries without receiving the corresponding increase in government support, the Dean of the Arts Faculty felt compelled to ask all Schools (intézetek) on February 24 to draw up in the ensuing 3 days a list of colleagues whose contribution to the teaching load may be sacrificed so that each of the schools would be able to return the amount of money to the Faculty budget in proportion of the difference between the sum transferred by the government per capita of the students taught and the sum total of the salaries due to the number of instructors employed. Since the School Council's request addressed to the Dean about the extension of the contracts which expire on 31 August had been just submitted, obviously the easiest target of the cuts were those who belonged to that category.

The Heads of Departments and the Acting Head of the School of English and American Studies held a conference on 26 February where -- after much deliberation -- a decision was reached implying that the School find themselves unable to contribute to this haphazard and hysterical form of solving the financial difficulties of ELTE which leaves no room and no time for a careful assessment of the academic and pedagogical performance of all those employed, neither does it give any careful and responsible thought to the needs that will be created by the restructuring of the degree programmes from September 2006. Furthermore it makes easy victims of those whose contracts happen to expire this year. A letter was sent to the Dean explaining our stance and suggesting other steps that might be taken to find some money to cover some of the sorest needs.

In spite of this -- as could be expected -- we have been informed that nine of our colleagues will be dismissed in September. This is a tremendous loss for the School and especially for the Centre for English Teacher Training to which they all belong. During the long time they have been with us they all, without exception, have proved that they are genuinely dedicated teachers whose expertise as well as personal presence we shall very badly miss. In order, however, to make the situation of today absolutely clear for everyone, it must also be said that it has been possible to successfully support the case of everyone who has completed his or her PhD or at least has passed the PhD szigorlat, the last but one step towards the degree. At the moment the PhD seems to be a requirement for anyone seeking employment at any of the universities in this country, and probably everywhere else in Europe or the US. As far as the situation of tomorrow is concerned, it is hard to be naively optimistic, as ELTE is as much affected by the financial moves the government chooses or is obliged to make as any other state-run institution in the country.

Ágnes Péter, acting head of SEAS
Péter Szigetvári, deputy head of SEAS

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